In the midst of this interview we get down to what one of my teachers, David Field, has dubbed “the DeepReal” —the honest pit of longing and desire at the center of the human person. The DeepReal is that place Freud and Jung were fond of making their targets; the Desert Fathers too. In that place is identity, affection, cravings, habits, idols, problems with Mom, issues with Dad, that-terrible-thing-i-did-that-day-that-ill-never-tell-anyone-about-ever, etc., and, importantly, God. Indeed, it is the very place to which the Lord descends in his salvation of us. He does not just apply gospel like a coat of exterior paint, or goatskin on Jacob’s arms. He goes all the way down to the DeepReal place.